'Background will shape how we view, assess and relate to people'

When did you come to Nottingham?

In 2016. I grew up in Dudley, went to university in Birmingham, and then I got a job in Northampton, then in Winchester, before returning to the Midlands when I got married. I had two job interviews – one in Leicester and one here at NTU. The Leicester one didn't work out as I couldn't make the interview, so I ended up here in Nottingham, and it's the best decision I ever made. I love my job. There are moments where I love it less…

Let me guess, around marking time?

That's just part of the role, I really enjoy the student side. I like the fact that they're really interested in our stories. I feel like I'm giving back to the next generation and helping the profession develop.

Is the work that you do grounded in the local community, in Nottingham as a place?

As much as possible, I try to ground it in Nottingham… sometimes it's tricky, you go where the connections are. But yes, there are links to lots of different organisations within the department and the School of Social Sciences. It's important to give back to the community and think about its diversity.

What EDI issues are particularly impacting the forensic area and forensic mental health at the moment?

A key concern is that there's an over-representation of certain groups within prisons, hospitals, etc, whether that's ethnicity, whether that's class, or gender.

Yet the workforce that is being trained to work with those individuals is not as diverse. That's an issue for a number of reasons: our client group needs to feel that we're accessible, that we can relate to them. But also, background will inevitably shape how we view, assess and relate to other people. I'm part of the British Psychological Society's Division of Forensic Psychology Committee and an EDI working group, and we are thinking about how we develop our practice.

There are schemes that universities support to develop a more diverse student population, but it's tricky. We're looking more at outreach work, going to schools and colleges to be role models and get more people interested in psychology.  

When you go into schools and colleges, how do you get people more interested in psychology?

We talk about Psychology in an interesting and enthusiastic way, show we love what we do, and we try to impart that enthusiasm. But the other thing is role modelling. I'm from an ethnic minority and working-class background, and it was a struggle getting to university. Others have commented that they feel understood when I've reflected on this. So it's role modelling and dispelling some of those myths and biases. There are myths around who might do this kind of job, and it's probably not someone who looks like me or acts like me!

Ultimately, one of the core skills of being an educator, and being a Forensic Psychologist, is helping people to feel understood and heard… like they can engage with you, and that you're accessible, willing to listen. That doesn't mean you can always give people what they want, but at least you're trying to have a dialogue with them.

When you deal with service users in forensic mental health, how do you see them, and relate to them?

My perspective is definitely trauma-informed. It's about understanding people in their context. People have done things that are against the law, unhelpful and/or risky, because they're doing the best they can with the tools they've got. This comes from Brené Brown's work, which is fab – she's a social worker/researcher in the States, and she talks a lot about compassion and empathy, and that's very much my approach.

Sometimes people think that if you've empathised, then you're trying to say what they've done – often offending behaviours – is okay. But that's not it. We're trying to understand why they engaged in those behaviours, and to help them develop tools to do things differently next time.

So talk to me about those tools.

A lot of the people that I've worked with in the past have not had good childhoods in terms of attachments with parents and caregivers. Those early childhood attachments are where we learn about emotions, coping skills, relationships, it's where our personality forms. 

Because they've missed out on a lot of those positive experiences, part of our job is to help them to develop those tools. We're not reparenting, but it's about helping develop supportive relationships with compassion and understanding in therapy, along with interventions to give them a different kind of experience and to use those skills.

I'm an accredited Cognitive Analytic Therapy Practitioner, and that's what CAT focuses on. If we have experienced empathy, then we can access it in our adulthood. If it's not been developed, then how can you access it? How are we then going to be able to show it to other people?

What needs to change in your area?

If I could influence funding, I'd put a lot more into prevention, a lot more into schools. We know, especially after Covid, that there are so many young people struggling with their mental health. We know young people are more amenable to change. Yet they tend to come to us in services where some of the challenging things have already happened, and their behaviours might have become entrenched; some of those opportunities are lost. It might sound idealised, but we have to find ways to lead people down different paths.  

Tell me something else you're passionate about.

I'm leading and co-editing a BPS core forensic psychology textbook with an EDI-informed approach to develop knowledge and practice. We hope to raise awareness about EDI in forensic psychology, so being more critical in how we think about the knowledge and evidence base around diversity.

I've got to where I am because of hard work, it's a privilege, and I will try to help other people amplify their voice. I want to develop students' knowledge and criticality, and then that knowledge is going to be applied with our service users… either way, I'll try to do what I can in this world to make a difference, however small it might be.

How does it impact you to this day in your work, being a psychologist from a BAME background?

That's an interesting question. It's challenging for different reasons. On the one hand, I feel a responsibility to talk about it and to raise awareness – I'm in this position where I feel privileged. I work in quite a senior position, in management, and there's a responsibility that goes with recognising those issues and making sure they are heard. 

There's an emotional labour to that as well – it shouldn't just be the responsibility of the person from an ethnic minority background to address these issues. So it can be difficult.

The other side of it is knowing the history of how my grandparents came from India to get their children (and grandchildren) to England to have better opportunities, and then for my Mum to work so hard to support me. She's a strong woman who has been through a lot to give me a better life. So I feel proud as well, I made it.